Seymour Hersh never got over his fall from grace: his long ago halcyon days when he was the darling of the liberal establishment. You know back in the sixties and seventies. As I noted in a long two part article about him last year, those days are gone. (See my article at Kennedysandking.com entitled “Sy Hersh Falls on His Face Again, and Again, and Again” March 12, 2023)
IMO for Sy Hersh & the Choskyites to claim JFK had RFK [as US Attny Gen / AG] head up the CIA's plots to kill Castro, & allegedly recruited top Mafia Wise-Guys [IE: Sam Giancanna, Carlos Marcello, etc] to do the dirty deed, is almost laughable on its face for several reasons... First of all the US-AG's juridiction ends at the US borders, vs the CIA's 'legal' juridiction [especially re 'black-ops & 'wet-works'] begins where the US' borders end. Thus IMO if JFK wanted RFK to head-up a CIA black-op / 'wet-works' op targeting Castro, he'd have simply named RFK as either head or depty head of the CIA after JFK fired Dulles & Co in the wake of the Bay of Pigs fiasco [but if that were the case why even fire Dulles at-all]. IMO No-one's ever claimed any other US-Attny Gen [besides RFK] has been operationally in-charge of a CIA overseas black-op / 'wet-works' op [IE: assassinating as foriegn leader] for a reason, by institutional jurisdiction & chain of command alone, that just don't fly.
- Prob #2: Given the great / HUGE 'animosity' between RFK & top Mafia guys who RFK were prosecuting, the idea they'd 'trust' each other to work together on such a potentially volitile black-op as the [illegal] assassination of a foreign head of state, is IMO almost laughable. It's been reported that top mafia wise-guys Carlos Marcello & Santos Trufficate were so pissed-off at RFK, they even 'discussed' 'putting a 'hit' out' on RFK [& even JFK, too]. Thus IMO there's no way the mafia would have ever trusted & participated in any Castro assassination scheme spearheaded by RFK, nor would RFK have asked them to.
- Prob #3: If JFK really wanted to take Castro out, he had 3 well documented chances to do so, & it would not have relied on 'James Bondish' style plots using exploding clam shells or poisoned cigars... 3Xs JFK could have ordered the US military to take Castro out, yet 3Xs he refused to do so: The Bay of Pigs Fiasco [resulting in JFK firing top CIA guys Dulles, Bissel & Cabell], #2 [which James mentions above] the JCS' black-op / falkse-flag plan 'Op Northwoods' which JFK quickly nixed & was so disturb by he removed Gen L.Lemitzer as head of the JCS. And #3: during the Cuban Missile Crisis the CIA & DOD put great pressure on JFK [ala the Bay of Pigs] to send in the US military for a full-scale bombing of & invasion of Cuba- Which JFK still refused to do. [FYI Note: tho Op Northwoods was first declassfied 1 yr after Sy Hersh's 1st Ed of 'Dark Side of Camelot' in Nov of 1997, but IMO it should have led to a 2nd Ed update].
- IMO each one of these points alone should cause serious doubts re the 'JFK picked RFK to head CIA plots to kill Castro' meme, let alone all 3 of them together.
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Similarly RE Vietnam, Sy Hersh & the Chomskyites falsely claim that LBJ simply followed JFK's policy tragectory in Vietnam. Jim has debunked this bogus claim via key docs IE: The straight-forward interpretation NSAM 263 [OKed by JFK ordering a withdrawal of 1000 US military 'advisors' by the end of Dec 1963] is that it marked the beginning of a planned phased withdrawal of US military personnel from Vietnam by the end of 1967-68 [per the Pentagon Papers, others say by end of 1965] -Vs- NSAM 273 [1st drafted on Nov 21, 1963, so JFK never saw it & IMO never knew of it] which, even tho it claimed to be following JFK's Vietnam policy, clearly opened the door wide for the US military to attack N.Vietnam & also widen the war into Laos [both of which JFK refused to do].
- Here's some on the ground facts & stats that IMO show just how much LBJ's policy diverged from JFK's: - In Dec 1963 by JFK’s directive there were 16,000 US military ‘advisors’ in Vietnam after his order to remove 1000 of them before the end of Dec 1963 [as per NSAM 263]. Under LBJ by 1968 there were 550,000 US Combat-Troops in Vietnam.
- The first time US jet fighter-bombers [IE: the F4 Phantom, F104 & F105, A-4 Skyhawk, Vought F-8 Crusader {1965}, Northrop F-5 Tiger {1965-66] were used in combat in Vietnam / SE.Asia was Aug 1964, to bomb Hanoi N.Vietnam in response to the Gulf of Tonkin {non}’incident’ as the ‘pretext’ [FYI: the A-4 Skyhawk went into service in 1956, the Vought F-8 Crusader entered service in 1957, the F104 & F105 entered service in 1958-59, & the F4 Phantom & F-5 Tiger both went into service in 1961-62- So JFK could have used them all in Vietnam but didn't. Also note under JFK, N.Vietnam was never bombed by US war planes].
- The first time B52 strategic long-range heavy-bombers were used in SE.Asia was 1965 [see Op ‘Rolling-Thunder’ - FYI: B52s went into service in 1955]
- The first time air-craft carriers were deployed & used in the SE.Asian theater was Aug 1964 [in the wake of the Gulf of Tonkin {non}’incident’ as the ‘pretext’].
- Helicopter-gunships were not used in Vietnam / SE.Asia till 1966-67.
- The Vietnam War ‘widened’ into Laos in Dec 1964 [& later Cambodia] under LBJ w Op ‘Barrel-Roll’, not JFK.
- From 1959 – 1963 total number of US personnel KIA in Vietnam: 186 [JFK’s tenure: Jan 1961 to Nov 22, 1963]- Under LBJ’s entire tenure (Dec 1963 – Jan 1969) there were 36,760 US soldiers KIA in Vietnam.
- PS-FYI: Agent Orange was first used in Vietnam [& Cambodia & Laos] in 1965, however JFK did OK the use of defoliants in Vietnam via ‘Operation Ranch-Hand’ [but Agent Orange was not ‘deployed’ there till 1965, even tho it apparently was available during JFK’s tenure].
- Note: a few B57s [5?] were first deployed in Vietnam in 1963 [JFK’s tenure] in non-combat strictly recon roles. They were not used in combat in Vietnam till Feb 1965 [LBJ’s tenure].
- What these facts show is that not only did LBJ massively escalate the war in Vietnam / SE.Asia quantitatively, but also did so qualitatively. He also expanded the war into Laos. Based on these facts & stats, IDK how Hersh & the ‘Chomskyites’ can say w a straight-face that LBJ’s escalation & expansion in SE.Asia was merely a ‘tactical’ change, & not a significant [IMO a major] strategic-policy change from what his predecessor JFK had pursued.
Jim, I just listened to a 'discussion' on a Nov 22, 2023 Podcast featuring Aaron Good, w the 'American Prestige' Podcast hosts Dan Bessner & Derek Davidson. Derek read from a piece by Fredrik Logevall, where Logevall claimed JFK 'significantly escalated' [both in terms of US personnel & equipment] in Vietnam in 1962 w the establishment of MACV, & Ops Ranch-Hand & Chopper, & the Strategic Hamlets Plan [Note https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1962_in_the_Vietnam_War to see just how much of a so-called 'escalation' took place in 1962]. Then Derek again quoting Logevall, said there was NO significant difference between JFK's NSAM 263 & LBJ's NSAM 273. Despite NSAM 273's claim it in Pnt #2, was adhering to JFK's Vietnam policy, we both know that's false [If NSAM 273 was actually written w JFK in mind, why the need to even claim it was adhering to JFK's policy as per NSAM 263, OKed by JFK just a month earlier?]. NSAM 273's points #7 & #8 openned the door wide open for the US to launch major combat ops into both North Vietnam & Laos too [which occured under LBJ beginning in Aug 1964], which JFK never did. Tho Aaron made clear that JFK's NSAM 263 implied JFK was planning to withdraw from Vietnam, he failed to articulate just why LBJ's NSAM 273 was a significant / major departure from JFK's policy. Derek did agree w Aaron JFK would likely never have escalated in Vietnam as LBJ did, yet maintained it's unclear JFK was actually planning to withdraw from Vietnam.
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PS: The more I think about the fact that McGeorge Bundy first drafted NSAM 273 on Nov 21, 1963 [thus JFK never saw it & most likely never knew of it], IMO implies Bundy drafted NSAM 273 for LBJ, not JFK. IMO that implies Bundy may have had some kind of 'premonition' JFK likely wasn't returning from Dallas alive. Any thoughts about that?
First of all, Logevall is full of it on this issue. NSAM 263 and its attached report is clear about a plan to begin withdrawing advisors that would continue until 1965. And Kennedy insisted that part be put back in, after Sullivan tried to take it out. NSAM 273 altered that plan and allowed for direct American intervention in the DeSoto patrols. I am not sure about the whole "who 273 was meant for", Greg Burnham apparently thinks there might be something to that. I am not sure. But after JFK Revisited how can anyoen deny that LBJ immediately impacted Kennedy's withdrawal plan?
his paddling lies on jfk and rfk is why i don't pay attention to him.
jfk and Biden don't belong in same sentence.and crazy still trying to sell LBJ just like jfk.
Very sad. He was a decent journalist back in the day.
Boy he has fallen off a cliff.
One of my professors at the UCLA Film School was Frank LaTourette. I know he was close to the faculty at Cal State. Curious if you ever knew him.
I don't recall him, but it was long ago.
We are all fortunate to have your unpacking of the facts. Truth and clarity, thank you Jim.
Welcome Enrico.
IMO for Sy Hersh & the Choskyites to claim JFK had RFK [as US Attny Gen / AG] head up the CIA's plots to kill Castro, & allegedly recruited top Mafia Wise-Guys [IE: Sam Giancanna, Carlos Marcello, etc] to do the dirty deed, is almost laughable on its face for several reasons... First of all the US-AG's juridiction ends at the US borders, vs the CIA's 'legal' juridiction [especially re 'black-ops & 'wet-works'] begins where the US' borders end. Thus IMO if JFK wanted RFK to head-up a CIA black-op / 'wet-works' op targeting Castro, he'd have simply named RFK as either head or depty head of the CIA after JFK fired Dulles & Co in the wake of the Bay of Pigs fiasco [but if that were the case why even fire Dulles at-all]. IMO No-one's ever claimed any other US-Attny Gen [besides RFK] has been operationally in-charge of a CIA overseas black-op / 'wet-works' op [IE: assassinating as foriegn leader] for a reason, by institutional jurisdiction & chain of command alone, that just don't fly.
- Prob #2: Given the great / HUGE 'animosity' between RFK & top Mafia guys who RFK were prosecuting, the idea they'd 'trust' each other to work together on such a potentially volitile black-op as the [illegal] assassination of a foreign head of state, is IMO almost laughable. It's been reported that top mafia wise-guys Carlos Marcello & Santos Trufficate were so pissed-off at RFK, they even 'discussed' 'putting a 'hit' out' on RFK [& even JFK, too]. Thus IMO there's no way the mafia would have ever trusted & participated in any Castro assassination scheme spearheaded by RFK, nor would RFK have asked them to.
- Prob #3: If JFK really wanted to take Castro out, he had 3 well documented chances to do so, & it would not have relied on 'James Bondish' style plots using exploding clam shells or poisoned cigars... 3Xs JFK could have ordered the US military to take Castro out, yet 3Xs he refused to do so: The Bay of Pigs Fiasco [resulting in JFK firing top CIA guys Dulles, Bissel & Cabell], #2 [which James mentions above] the JCS' black-op / falkse-flag plan 'Op Northwoods' which JFK quickly nixed & was so disturb by he removed Gen L.Lemitzer as head of the JCS. And #3: during the Cuban Missile Crisis the CIA & DOD put great pressure on JFK [ala the Bay of Pigs] to send in the US military for a full-scale bombing of & invasion of Cuba- Which JFK still refused to do. [FYI Note: tho Op Northwoods was first declassfied 1 yr after Sy Hersh's 1st Ed of 'Dark Side of Camelot' in Nov of 1997, but IMO it should have led to a 2nd Ed update].
- IMO each one of these points alone should cause serious doubts re the 'JFK picked RFK to head CIA plots to kill Castro' meme, let alone all 3 of them together.
-
-
Similarly RE Vietnam, Sy Hersh & the Chomskyites falsely claim that LBJ simply followed JFK's policy tragectory in Vietnam. Jim has debunked this bogus claim via key docs IE: The straight-forward interpretation NSAM 263 [OKed by JFK ordering a withdrawal of 1000 US military 'advisors' by the end of Dec 1963] is that it marked the beginning of a planned phased withdrawal of US military personnel from Vietnam by the end of 1967-68 [per the Pentagon Papers, others say by end of 1965] -Vs- NSAM 273 [1st drafted on Nov 21, 1963, so JFK never saw it & IMO never knew of it] which, even tho it claimed to be following JFK's Vietnam policy, clearly opened the door wide for the US military to attack N.Vietnam & also widen the war into Laos [both of which JFK refused to do].
- Here's some on the ground facts & stats that IMO show just how much LBJ's policy diverged from JFK's: - In Dec 1963 by JFK’s directive there were 16,000 US military ‘advisors’ in Vietnam after his order to remove 1000 of them before the end of Dec 1963 [as per NSAM 263]. Under LBJ by 1968 there were 550,000 US Combat-Troops in Vietnam.
- The first time US jet fighter-bombers [IE: the F4 Phantom, F104 & F105, A-4 Skyhawk, Vought F-8 Crusader {1965}, Northrop F-5 Tiger {1965-66] were used in combat in Vietnam / SE.Asia was Aug 1964, to bomb Hanoi N.Vietnam in response to the Gulf of Tonkin {non}’incident’ as the ‘pretext’ [FYI: the A-4 Skyhawk went into service in 1956, the Vought F-8 Crusader entered service in 1957, the F104 & F105 entered service in 1958-59, & the F4 Phantom & F-5 Tiger both went into service in 1961-62- So JFK could have used them all in Vietnam but didn't. Also note under JFK, N.Vietnam was never bombed by US war planes].
- The first time B52 strategic long-range heavy-bombers were used in SE.Asia was 1965 [see Op ‘Rolling-Thunder’ - FYI: B52s went into service in 1955]
- The first time air-craft carriers were deployed & used in the SE.Asian theater was Aug 1964 [in the wake of the Gulf of Tonkin {non}’incident’ as the ‘pretext’].
- Helicopter-gunships were not used in Vietnam / SE.Asia till 1966-67.
- The Vietnam War ‘widened’ into Laos in Dec 1964 [& later Cambodia] under LBJ w Op ‘Barrel-Roll’, not JFK.
- From 1959 – 1963 total number of US personnel KIA in Vietnam: 186 [JFK’s tenure: Jan 1961 to Nov 22, 1963]- Under LBJ’s entire tenure (Dec 1963 – Jan 1969) there were 36,760 US soldiers KIA in Vietnam.
- PS-FYI: Agent Orange was first used in Vietnam [& Cambodia & Laos] in 1965, however JFK did OK the use of defoliants in Vietnam via ‘Operation Ranch-Hand’ [but Agent Orange was not ‘deployed’ there till 1965, even tho it apparently was available during JFK’s tenure].
- Note: a few B57s [5?] were first deployed in Vietnam in 1963 [JFK’s tenure] in non-combat strictly recon roles. They were not used in combat in Vietnam till Feb 1965 [LBJ’s tenure].
- What these facts show is that not only did LBJ massively escalate the war in Vietnam / SE.Asia quantitatively, but also did so qualitatively. He also expanded the war into Laos. Based on these facts & stats, IDK how Hersh & the ‘Chomskyites’ can say w a straight-face that LBJ’s escalation & expansion in SE.Asia was merely a ‘tactical’ change, & not a significant [IMO a major] strategic-policy change from what his predecessor JFK had pursued.
Nice one, and thanks.
Jim, I just listened to a 'discussion' on a Nov 22, 2023 Podcast featuring Aaron Good, w the 'American Prestige' Podcast hosts Dan Bessner & Derek Davidson. Derek read from a piece by Fredrik Logevall, where Logevall claimed JFK 'significantly escalated' [both in terms of US personnel & equipment] in Vietnam in 1962 w the establishment of MACV, & Ops Ranch-Hand & Chopper, & the Strategic Hamlets Plan [Note https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1962_in_the_Vietnam_War to see just how much of a so-called 'escalation' took place in 1962]. Then Derek again quoting Logevall, said there was NO significant difference between JFK's NSAM 263 & LBJ's NSAM 273. Despite NSAM 273's claim it in Pnt #2, was adhering to JFK's Vietnam policy, we both know that's false [If NSAM 273 was actually written w JFK in mind, why the need to even claim it was adhering to JFK's policy as per NSAM 263, OKed by JFK just a month earlier?]. NSAM 273's points #7 & #8 openned the door wide open for the US to launch major combat ops into both North Vietnam & Laos too [which occured under LBJ beginning in Aug 1964], which JFK never did. Tho Aaron made clear that JFK's NSAM 263 implied JFK was planning to withdraw from Vietnam, he failed to articulate just why LBJ's NSAM 273 was a significant / major departure from JFK's policy. Derek did agree w Aaron JFK would likely never have escalated in Vietnam as LBJ did, yet maintained it's unclear JFK was actually planning to withdraw from Vietnam.
-
PS: The more I think about the fact that McGeorge Bundy first drafted NSAM 273 on Nov 21, 1963 [thus JFK never saw it & most likely never knew of it], IMO implies Bundy drafted NSAM 273 for LBJ, not JFK. IMO that implies Bundy may have had some kind of 'premonition' JFK likely wasn't returning from Dallas alive. Any thoughts about that?
First of all, Logevall is full of it on this issue. NSAM 263 and its attached report is clear about a plan to begin withdrawing advisors that would continue until 1965. And Kennedy insisted that part be put back in, after Sullivan tried to take it out. NSAM 273 altered that plan and allowed for direct American intervention in the DeSoto patrols. I am not sure about the whole "who 273 was meant for", Greg Burnham apparently thinks there might be something to that. I am not sure. But after JFK Revisited how can anyoen deny that LBJ immediately impacted Kennedy's withdrawal plan?